Behind the lens, A snippet chatting with Roland Barthes in dream, Part_3 ⇒ Kirno Sohochari

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…: Thanks again for your curiosity to the answer I had given in the dream. It was not an easy matter for me to facing you in the dream. I already mentioned that reading any signage in dream-reality is complicated than the reality we have. The moments of dream are perplexing. Everything is happening by the glance of time. Moments are so fast that you lost your control on it. All this action are happening beyond over in dream, where the events are always trying to supersede each other. The most problematic thing is that the images and language of dream certainly the fragments of our real activities in the world but the fragments always try to replace the reality in uneven way.


Blurry images, anomalous events, fearful faces, hostile surface, sarcastic behavior and lot of fragmented words with massive abnormality indicate the sign that dream is the most powerful denial of the real world. The anomalous communication channel always tries to escape from the real world’s language. I think dream is a battle between the two different realities and be the languages. The expressions and gestures of image or any word are utterly uncontrolled and perhaps absurd there. Tell me one thing before I meet up your curiosity, why everything is anomalous and behave differently into the dream. Why…?

Barthes: The question here is the answer of your question. Dream is the whimsical byproduct of our collective life, but when you’re dreaming something it immediate detach you from the collective. Dream is your own interpretation about what life is. You interpret your own version of reality in dream. The real world is collective and you are one of the actors there. Your interaction as an actor depends on the activities of other actor.

You’re not a free being at all in reality. Maybe you have a lot to say about your relation with the real world but you cannot express it for lot of the reasons. Dream could do that. Your desire and expression are unrestricted in the dream, even it is restricted for some reason you can easily repeal the dream by quit from this. I think freedom of expression is the key factor in dream and maybe for this reason we’re still living on the chaotic disorder. You’re right, dream is the chaotic rebel against the so-called order and discipline of reality, where the language is intended to break the wall of well-constructed images. Dream is unconventional in that sense.

What you are doing in the real life? You always try to construct the images, which could be told something that “Who are you and why you are celebrating the reality to the other.” Real world events are affirmative to the effective interaction of language and expression, where the human being is bound to observe and examine his own action for self-ratification.


The existence of being depends on the existence of self-ratification. You have to be logical when you’re abiding with the collective “other”, because your existence as a human being depends on meaning that you could explain yourself as like the “other” is explained themselves. It’s an assimilation of collective interpretation that you are not an alien in the collective. When you’re collective you could not say this your image is unique and unprecedented. The images you have made in the reality and happily living on it are not you. You’re not the image-builder of your own, you build it under the restrictions of collective definition of the reality.

Dream helps us to quit from the loss. That’s why the image and language of dream seems anomalous to you, because this is the first time you try to build the image by depending on your own innovative words and imagination.

When you dream something, you tried to deny the restriction or bindings imposed by the collective “other” and that’s why dream is the unique state of mind, where you’re busy to face the real. I agreed in a certain point of Carl Jung, he said once, “Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to an understanding of ourselves.”

Dream is the open sky where you tried to play the game that is not irritating by the collective. Yes, you bear the lot of collective images in dream and lot of them is prehistoric, as Mr. Carl Jung explained it in his dream-theory very well. Despite this when you face the fragmented images in dream you then trying to rebuild the images in an unprecedented language and thought. Who told that we’re not thinking in dream? Yes, indeed we try to thoughtful in dream spite of the blurry surface.

Dream is the certain point to open your soul for the self-rectification in careless surface. I like when Carl Jung said this, “Knowing your own darkness is the best method for dealing with the darknesses of other people.” and like this, “Your vision will become clear only when you can look into your own heart. Who looks outside, dreams; who looks inside, awakes.”

Dream is the reality of your inner self, where you tried to eliminate the outer world’s images in an uneven action. It is the denial of definitive definition of the reality and I like to see dream to makes me new and less conservative to the language.

…: I don’t claim that I clearly understand your definition of the dream, but it’s true that dream is an unprecedented experience when we try to manipulate it. Dream really carries the capacity of self-definition and rectification. I felt it when I’m seeing you in the dream and tried to answering your question by using the self-intellect of mine. I tried to oppose you by using your own definition about writing and that was the funny things there.

Barthes: Nothing is funny here my friend. Dream is the most insecure position of language and expression. You bear a lot of Jung’s archetypal images in your subconscious mind and that’s are coming from the outer Reality, and maybe you bear also the frued’s libido-complex in the dream, but to the end you tried to change the meaning all these by your own imaginative words, and that’s the beauty of dream. Dream changes the definition. It’s the changing factor of real definition by the real.

Dream is the reality of new language, new images, new situations, and new interactions; and yes, it’s the new pleasure of something new definition which is undiscovered yet by the reality. It’s a silent battle of the definition and meaning you have made in the real world to living on it. What is the real world man? It is definitive to the definition and nothing else more. We eat definition in dine, shit the definition in lavatory, chew it in love or orgasm, and by the way sleeping with it for snoring the definition. Your images depended on the definition you make to understand your action on the eventful world.

roland-barthes_25When you build the images, you also build the definition of your own action to the world. The jigsaw puzzle is endlessly definitive to the definition my friend. You’re bound to break and build the puzzle again-and-again to justify the “Self”. Is it real? Is it faithful to explain your solo-body and be the spirit? Is it “You”, who is the gambler of this eventful reality; or maybe it’s not “You” as you think. Perhaps your language is not correct to explain that who you are and why you’re in here.

Your language is the carrier to define your role to the world, but it’s limited to the collective actions of human being and Jung’s archetypal images. Dream is the stage where you get the chance to break the endless jigsaw puzzle by uneven definition, and that is “You”; the real “You”, who is just born to the reality, just born to change the meaning of the reality, -the reality that he used to narrate from the beginning moment of the language.

You could say that dream is a haphazard and disordered experience of reality. It’s a disturbing amalgamation of the shadows, -just hidden underneath the suppressed mind. I’m not opposing you, but it should memorable that dream is not disordered as we think. Every disorder has its own order for the disorder; otherwise, we are not existed in the reality. Jung’s said true when he quotes his own thought, “In all chaos there is a cosmos, in all disorder a secret order.”

The upsetting disorder of words and narration, and the reverse images reflects the rebel against the reality we used to live. You could not be an artist or the thinker at all, if you have not the courage to face the ambiguities in your dream. Dream makes artist and artist makes language tricky. I do believe that “…language is never innocent.” Even in the real world and obviously in dream.


…: Once I asked Michael Foucault about the meaning of Socrates word “Know Thyself”, when he said to the opposite that knowing your “own” and the “beginning” is not necessary to justify your images in reality. He clearly said to me that,:-

“The knowledge of reality depends on the knowledge of acceptance that you are belonging to the reality before it ends. It is not necessary to know the end. The only certain thing is that you are existed on the reality to celebrate and examine it by your knowledge that in how and which way it could extend so far.”

You know he is very definitive on the thought that embodied action of human makes the images and the words of language and they represent the game of dominant and dominated. As if I consider his thought I could say this, -dream is the reflection of our bodied action of dominance to dominate the images as the dominant wish to represent in the reality.

The existence of being depends on the existence of self-ratification. You have to be logical when you’re abiding with the collective “other”, because your existence as a human being depends on meaning that you could explain yourself as like the “other” is explained themselves

Barthes: Whatever you talk at any context the truth never changed. The collective effort means the collective images and you were the part of these. The funniest thing is that you’re not the owner of your own image and thought in the reality. We are not proficient to build our own definition and images by crossing the Jung’s collective fence, and this is the sarcastic fate of the being.

You have to purchase the images from the social market, where lot of other like “You”, are purchase this at any cost. Family, neighbor, society and the state means a lot for “Self Imaging”. You cannot deny this even in dream; but you fought to change the scenario in dream and that is the beauty of any dream; maybe it is easeful or maybe the nightmare, but the struggle to change the meaning makes your dream significant for the reality.

Now let come to the Socrates. When he said, “Know Thyself”, it means that knowing your own depended on the knowing of the other, who are living and interacting to you in the surface. You could not build your image or definition by the own. It’s a collective intervention of mass. Your “Self Recognition” is nothing but the mirroring of the collective action in a society.

I explained it in my text, where I clearly try to deal the question that “is it possible for anybody to knowing his “own” sans the knowing of the “other”. Try to memorize the words that you’re not an individual in the milieu. Your language is collective recognition of your interaction and intellect, so the definition and images are not alien there. “Self Recognition” depends on the “Collective Recognition” of the images and that’s the true thing of the real existence.

I think you bit puzzled to hear me. Just think and imagine my words:-

“But I never looked like that!’ -How do you know? What is the ‘you’ you might or might not look like? Where do you find it -by which morphological or expressive calibration? Where is your authentic body? You are the only one who can never see yourself except as an image; you never see your eyes unless they are dulled by the gaze they rest upon the mirror or the lens (I am interested in seeing my eyes only when they look at you); even and especially for your own body, you are condemned to the repertoire of its images.”

This is the fundamental principle to answer your question that why we are experiencing dream and for what reason everything looks different in there. Freedom is a vogue word in the reality of the real world. You have no freedom to build your own image and definition here. You’re not the lord of your self-gratified images. “Individuality” actually depends on the “mass-duality” here and that’s the fact to the end.

Nothing is happening here to serve you, instead of you are subjugated to satisfy the massive mass-duality. Your imaginative capacities are disabled to makes your “own”, except the capacity that you could dream something when you’re in dream.

roland-barthes_27_2…: You mean only the dream could liberate our embodied “Self” from the chain of collective order and discipline? I’m consenting that reality confined the soul in its own order of definition, but what is the assurance that it would not happen in dream. I think the difference is merely marginal. So far we talk about this dream is another prison to confine our “Self Gratification” into the blurry vision and muddled words. I achieved this when I was facing your stare eyes in my dream. It was not helpful for me to build my own image and definition sans the rest.

When you questioned me about the purpose of reading and writing, this is the first time I answer the question by quoting you, instead of quoting me. Tell me, why I felt the urge to quoting you on that moment?

It was strange that I was clearly quoting you on the dream without reading any text before. Maybe my chatting with you in real world help me to quote your words to answer the question you have made. Your words somehow provoked my memories to remembering you and that is the fact I think.

Anyway, one thing is clear to me that dream is not looking like the reality but it can be pull down you to its own reality in spite of the ambiguities. My dream was ambiguous on that day.

Barthes: You’re doing the same mistake again. Dream is not ambiguous. Your definition about ambiguity provoked you to think like that. Your collective interaction in the reality makes the definition of ambiguity and absurdity.

Let tell me one thing what is ambiguous or absurd? What do you want to mean by this when you marked anybody’s action as the symptom of ambiguity or madness? What is the meaning of mad my friend? Who give you the right to marked anybody as ambiguous and even mad?

All the definition you haired from the collective mass and build the perception that this-and-this are the ambiguous or absurd and maybe madness. When you make these images, you don’t thinking about that there should have opposite sign of the words. An ambiguous or the mad man has its own definition about ambiguity and madness, but you don’t feel to bother it.

roland-barthes_26-_2This is the problem of your definition and signage whatever you have made for you in the civilization. They’re not represent the all, even the “Self”, they represent a collective mass, who imagined themselves as fit for the rest. I think my words are not remote to the words of Mr. Foucault. He worked lot on the signage problem of these symbols.

Whatever this, I believe on the reality but not the definitions we have made to prove that we’re the definitive sign on the earth. We failed to give the space for “individual Being” to makes his own definition about anything. We try to compensate the loss by inventing thousands of writing technique and artful activities. Literature, Philosophy and lot other discipline try to compensate the loss of “Self Recognition” by different way, but this is not enough to repair the loss we have made in civilization.

Dream helps us to quit from the loss. That’s why the image and language of dream seems anomalous to you, because this is the first time you try to build the image by depending on your own innovative words and imagination.

Dream is the destructor of the collective words and images you have achieved from the real world. It’s more powerful than anything you have experienced from the reality. It’s even more powerful than the creative words of literature or philosophy and many other artful activities of human.

The only problem is that when you’re trying to express your dream to the other you have no alternative there. You’re have to express the experience by choosing the real-life’s collective words. I agreed with you that dream need different language to express its freedom to the real world, but we still unable to find this. The words and images of dream are not enough sufficient to replace and destroy the signage of real world.

When we dream something and seeing any image or to see anybody is talking there, we lost the language used in our real life. Reality is wounded by the dream, lost by the dream, and perhaps the “self-gratification” was begins from that moment. The fate of a lover and the language are same in the context. Both of them lost their knowing identity in dream to build the new once, which is unprecedented to the real.

It’s a feeling of lost something that was very close to you in real. I wanted to compare it by the lover’s feeling. A lover lost his language when he said to his lover that he does no more love her.

“Isn’t the most sensitive point of this mourning the fact that I must lose a language —the amorous language? No more, ‘I love you’s.”

…: Yeah! Dreaming moment is the absurdity to feel that maybe I lost the language forever. It was very odd to keep silent in dream, because the events are vibrant there, despite the blurred images or the language. I lost my voice when you questioned to me from the remote by hiding your meaningful existence behind the dark background.

Anyway, it was momentary. Soon after, I find the confidence to face the question and answering you by quoting your text. It would be better if I answer the question by my own words, but it was not possible then. Because, I’m struggled hard to find the new words and soon discover me to stumble upon the same old words of your text.

I think you’re never able to talk and discuss about the reality by the unsigned language or images of dream, but we always take this dream that one day we will able to convert the real-world-language by the dreamy-language.

However, time’s up to quote your text and wanted to quote this with the addition that when I was quoting you in dream a burglar was silently entered my room for thefts.

Continued to the next…